2
0:00:00
Welcome Natalie, I'm so excited to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for joining.
1
0:00:26
No, thank you, Laura. I'm really excited to get stuck in.
2
0:00:30
Awesome. So Natalie Stokell has two daughters, a tween and a teen, and has always cared deeply about raising empowered children. She has a Master's in Psychology and a postgraduate diploma in Gender and Women's Studies, and trained with the Institute of Sexuality Education. She knows body positivity and pleasure-based sex education is the way of the future. And I have to say this is such an interesting conversation and honestly I'm really curious myself because I've got daughters who are the eldest is eight right now and the thought of these conversations is a little bit like, whoa. So I'm excited to have this conversation today. So can you just tell me a little bit about yourself and how and why you got into this line of work?
14
0:01:16
1
0:01:17
Sure, sure. Okay, so yeah, my background is psychology. I did a Master's and my postgraduate diploma in Gender and Women's Studies and my thesis was the way in which the media affect women's body image and self-esteem. And back then we're talking about print media, so I was looking at magazines specifically. Social media wasn't as big, but the principles would be the same. And I was really close to applying to do a PhD in the States, but branching more into women's sexuality. But then the real world started calling and I decided to take that path instead. But it's something I've been super passionate about and always been super interested in, you know, the one talking to friends about sex or women's sexuality and those kind of things. And then I became a mother. When my first daughter was just a baby, it started brewing again, like the desire to really dive into this. And I bought the domain name, Tell Your Daughters, even though I wasn't sure exactly what I was going to be encouraging people to tell their daughters. I bought that. Then I had another daughter, and then we got into school. It wasn't until my first daughter hit her tweens or coming into early tweens that I started to realise that the sex ed in school was not going to be much different from the sex ed I received like 20 or more years ago. And that was just so disheartening, frustrating, infuriating, annoying, and just incredible. I couldn't really believe it. And so I started looking for where am I going to... other than me, you know, where else my daughter's going to get the kind of sex ed that I want them to have. And, you know, I realized there wasn't much out there. There's many beautiful, you know, moon circles and things for girls about their periods, and that's beautiful, that's coming out, but it's not the same for sex and sexuality. So I got taught up and did more training and more research and then have developed some workshops which I call Tools for Teens and basically it's body positive and sex positive sex ed for tweens and teens. The first, there's two workshop age groups. The first is 11 to 13, the second is 14 to 16. In the 11 to 13 one it's not explicitly about sex. I know people get concerned, oh my gosh, you're going to be in it. The only time sex comes up is in the anonymous Q&A at the end if I get a question. But otherwise, it's really about laying the foundations and planting the seeds. So we do a lot about communication, empowerment, finding your voice. We talk a lot about anatomy, but also include pleasure-based anatomy rather than just reproductive anatomy, which is, you know, It's important to teach growth for females. And yeah, so it just kind of organically came from this passion and me realizing that things haven't changed, unfortunately, hardly changed much at all, and so wanting to provide that for our young girls and emerging women.
2
0:04:18
Incredible. Wonderful. And so what do you find that's lacking in schools today? I mean, even back when you were educated around it. What do you find the main topics or themes that are lacking in today's education system?
1
0:04:31
Yeah, so today and back in the day, the main focus was and generally still is focus on prevention, you know, preventing unplanned pregnancy, prevention of STIs, and of course that's important, that's super important, but it's just limiting the whole realm of sex into this tiny little box. So we're not talking about feelings, you know, much at all. And, you know, as we know, our teens especially are massive bundles of feelings and hormones.
6
0:05:03
So important.
1
0:05:04
Yeah, so important to really talk about that. Often I find the values are quite limited that they're spoken about and so it can limit what we're portraying to our children about sex. Sometimes it can be not, it's still quite heteronormative. I mean it's getting better but it's still quite heteronormative. It just needs, a lot of things need updating in terms of what access we're giving our kids, what information they need. So it's still that real focus on prevention and kind of fear as opposed to the more sex positive and more empowering parts of it. There's got to be that balance.
2
0:05:41
Yeah, beautiful. Thanks for sharing on that one because we all do have, like, yes, we've been through the school system, but everyone does have varying levels of degrees based on what their parents told them or didn't tell them. So it's kind of good just to kind of get that as a basis before we dive straight into this. So how do you start to bring up some of these often really difficult conversations and how do you know when your child or your teenager is ready for some of these conversations? Because it's always really tricky to gauge, isn't it? I think they're ready, but they don't know.
1
0:06:14
Definitely. So this is a tricky one. I mean, I want to preface by saying you're the only person, you know, you know your child best and just to follow your gut, your intuition. But I really encourage parents to be proactive rather than reactive when it comes to sex ed. So what this means is telling them before a situation or something happens that they need to know. So unfortunately I have personal experience with this. When my eldest daughter was in class 2, so she was 6, she came home from a playdate one day and the friend there had told her, she was a year older than her, but she told her about how babies are made. And it was in quite a not correct and shocking way for my daughter. And she was just, mum, so-and-so told me this, is it true? And I was just, I was heartbroken because I had planned to, you know, one day in the future, not when she was six, but one day in the future, tell her about it in a way that was beautiful, in a way that spoke about the values that are important to me. So I had to really be reactive then rather than proactive. So I had to do my repair and then get the books and bring the things in that I wanted to bring to her, but there was that repair. I still feel sad about that, that I wasn't able to give that to her. So primarily, to be proactive rather than reactive. So, it might be earlier than you think. Obviously, be led by your child and be age or slash maturity appropriate. Sometimes with age, you're appropriate. People have got different levels of maturity. So with what's going to fit your child in terms of their readiness. So with younger children, it's really about planting the seeds. It's going to be quite simple things. When we come to tweens, tweens is an amazing age because, you know, developmentally, they're ready to take on bigger concepts. They're coming into their body more and they're more aware of the world around them than just this internal world. So they're quite ripe. But also, you know, your tweens, they're not yet that self-conscious. And also, they still really think that you're the bee's knees. You know, they still think you're amazing. I'm like, when you come into teens, there's more of the eye-rolling and that kind of thing. So when you come into tweens, you can really start having some more modeling, teachable moments and more storytelling, those kind of things, moving a bit away from the simplicity. And then coming into teens, you can really go into the nuances of things. The conversations you can have can be a lot deeper, a lot more open, and eventually they might start teaching you things in terms of just the way the world's going and things are moving quite quickly. So I think I've diverged a bit there from your question, but... No, no, no.
5
0:09:01
Yeah, okay.
2
0:09:02
Yeah, absolutely. And I guess it's always that tricky part, and I guess, so just to recap, I guess, what you're saying is that it's really based on a little bit their age, but mostly their maturity on when you do bring those conversations up. And then also having a little bit of awareness that it might be earlier. They're probably, we're ready, let's face it. Yes, definitely. Because I can think about myself and I'm like, oh hey, I'm ready for that. And I think that's too important. It's not about you, is it? It's about giving them the proactive heads up and the understanding as well so they don't get misinformation. Of course, yeah. Which I imagine is a big problem sometimes. I probably imagine a lot of your work is just combating misinformation most of the time. Would that be true?
1
0:09:48
Yeah. And also just children being exposed to things online, those kind of things, before they're ready and then just, and again, it's like the repair. It's an important, developmentally important part of adolescence to be curious about sex. That's one of the developmental jobs or roles of adolescence. So they're going to be curious, and that's normal and beautiful, but we really need to make sure that where the curiosity is challenged isn't to places online and things like that.
4
0:10:25
Yeah.
13
0:10:25
Yeah.
2
0:10:26
Do you think the more that it's spoken about, I'm going a little bit off book here, but do you think the more that it's spoken about, the less, you know, taboo and questions and behind everything, you know, you're not going to talk about it with your mum or dad, those kinds of things are or not?
1
0:10:41
Oh, definitely. No, definitely. I think the more normalised it is, the more we're keeping those lines of communication You know, because we learn so much by what isn't said as well as by what is said. You know, so, if sex is sex, it's never mentioned. You know, one of those things we're hush-hush about, we're still teaching them something by default, you know, by not talking about it. So yeah, definitely, I'm all for the openness in those conversations, yeah, for sure.
2
0:11:08
Yeah, beautiful. And so, beautiful segue, what are the five conversations that you really must have with your kids, you know, whether we're talking kids, preteens, teens, you know, even past the ages and the ranges, I guess, there, but what
1
0:11:22
are the conversations we must have with them? Beautiful, beautiful. So, before we dive into conversations, yeah, just to refresh that the first, you know, the ages, the early years of the planting the seeds, you know, the bit of storytelling, very simple concepts, limited information being led by them. Moving into tweens, we can have more storytelling and the teachable moments. And then moving into teens, it's going to be a lot more about – well, they might be having lived experiences of some of these things, so it's going to be a lot more practical. It's going to be connecting a lot more with – a lot more open, a lot more specific to them or what they're going through, what their friends are going through. And also something I talk about with my parents or when I do my talks, I like to approach all conversations keeping three things in mind. So the first thing is the piece of information, what the piece of information we want to get across in this conversation is. The second thing, what values, what values are important to us that we're modelling in this conversation or with underlying. And the third thing is that relationship building. It's an important part of building our relationship. So the piece you're bringing might be quite small. We don't necessarily want to bring the whole. You might just use one piece to bring. The values that you might bring. So for me, an example of value or something that's important to me when I talk about sex, especially my daughters, is pleasure because often that's left out for in sex ed or for females. When we reduce sex to procreation, physiologically it's arguable that a female's pleasure is needed for procreation or reproduction. So if we reduce it to that, we're really ignoring that. So for me, that's a value of mine. It's important that I, when I have a conversation around that, often pleasure, the importance of pleasure, and the woman's own pleasure is important to me. And then the relationship building, that's normal, beautiful parenting stuff, the eye contact, the affirming and validating. Something I say to parents is the very first thing when a child comes to you with a question is to say, thank you so much for coming to me, that's a great question. Just to validate that you're a safe adult, that you appreciate them coming to you. The second question is to get a bit more information rather than just diving into what you think they want to know, just really clarify what it is they want to know so you're not giving them too much information. So yeah, just keeping those three things in mind in terms of the conversations that we go through. So the first conversation is the body safety conversation. And this can happen really in the early years. I mean, you could even say the seeds of this or modeling this could start from when a child is born. So whenever you have a newborn baby, the only way they can communicate is by crying and also with their eyes, eye contact. They haven't had hand-eye coordination, so they can't push or use hands. Obviously, they haven't gotten it verbally. So there's this beautiful thing called gaze aversion. So when you're connecting with your baby and you're talking and connecting, and then your baby looks away, it's really important to just allow that, because that's your baby, neurologic your baby, it's had enough stimulation, it's taken a break, allowing some integration, and when it's ready it will turn back. So it's really important that we allow that. We don't follow our baby's gaze around there and try and get the eye contact and draw it back in. And that alone is laying the foundations for trusting and respecting the baby's own body and own cues, so that body autonomy. So super simple, but quite important. And you can see how we could build on those layers of foundation. Another important aspect of body safety from the young years is the importance of using correct names for body parts, like genitals especially. From a legal perspective, this is really important because if something were to happen to your child, it's really important they can use the correct name to get across what has happened to them. And also, it's a tricky one because often we have cutesy pet names, which I think can be beautiful. And my way around this is we do both. We have a cutesy name and they also know the correct name. And as they were growing up, I would use this interchangeably. And even when I was changing their nappy, so they're not verbal, you know, understanding. And, you know, now I'm going to wipe your vulva. Or we used to say yoni. Now I'm going to wipe your yoni. I would interchange. So, you know, if you have a cutesy name, you could do that, but interchange it, you know, with the correct name as well. And also, just another note around the correct body parts, it's only in recent years that we've started differentiating between vulva and vagina. Originally, vagina, and I grew up with my vagina, it was all of it, the vagina was all of it. But the vagina actually only refers to the internal. The vulva is all the external. So if we're reducing everything to just the internal, just the, you know, we sometimes the internal can be considered considered that the receptacle or the part that receives in terms of you know male to female or penis to vagina sex. So if we're reducing it just so that you know we're leaving out, there's so much we're leaving out and what is that teaching our daughter. So I think it's really important and this can be hard and this is hard for me initially, to start you know saying vulva and vagina just so they're aware. And in the bath you know when you do the go when they're really little you do the go, show me your elbow, you know show me your nose and and you know show me your vulva and you can this is for me I felt right to do this but I've taught them what their clitoris was and you know you see the little little pearl at the top of your vulva that's your clitoris and it's here for pleasure and now show me your big toe wiggle your big toe where's your knee so it can just be something simple and I know it can feel awkward or uncomfortable. And then like you said, if we have our own stuff around it, it can feel a bit uncomfortable talking about a clitoris or a vulva. But the more we can practice that and do that, the more empowering it's going to be for our daughters or for all our children and boys, you know, naming their body parts as well.
2
0:17:35
I think that, if you don't mind if I just jump in, because I think that's really interesting because, you know, I mean, we probably don't go in detail in our household, but we do use the correct names. And what I find the most interesting is that on the odd occasion, you know, if it's bath time, we've got family around or whatever, and you know, because I've got really young children, one might run through my house, you know, and they will use the correct name. And I find the most interesting thing is the kids are completely fine. It's the adults I think that find the discomfort around the correct name as opposed to the cutesy name. And you know, I think even myself, I've always questioned, oh, like, did I make the right choice there? You know, when you've got a three-year-old that will be like, you know, and then the corrects are the right, you know, it's nothing. But it's also like, it's quite confronting because then you have other adults that might go, like, whoa, okay.
1
0:18:25
Yes.
2
0:18:26
You know? And so it's interesting as a culture that we find all these other names to use but the actual name.
1
0:18:33
And even as adults, there's, yeah.
2
0:18:37
I mean, I don't know about you, but I would say a lot of people would still use, you know, random phrases or random words that don't even have anything to do with it, really. I don't know. Like, do you find that?
4
0:18:49
Yeah.
1
0:18:50
Of course. And it's a tricky one because people feel, you know, we are rightly so super uncomfortable with sexualizing our young children.
12
0:18:59
For sure, absolutely.
1
0:19:00
And there seems to be some kind of link between using the correct names can feel a bit like sexualizing them, but it's not. I think that's where some of the uncomfortableness can come. That it's the uncomfortableness of, yeah, we feel like we're sexualizing that child just by using the correct name that we would, the more comfortable using for an adult, you know, but we're not sexualizing. So can I, just, I guess, to be, go one step further, when we're using the correct name, I assume, from what you're saying, we're teaching body safety because they can clearly go like, no, like, that's not okay. And we're teaching, I guess, good, correct anatomy as we move forward and have discussions as preteens, teens, adults and things like that. Isn't that any other benefit from using the right name that I haven't just mentioned? Yes, yeah, yeah. And it relates to body safety. But it's been found that children who use the right names and that is an indicator of their being educated, they are less likely to be targeted by a predator, which is huge.
2
0:20:05
Oh my goodness.
1
0:20:06
And it's so protective. So, so powerful. Yeah. And even if it's just that, just, you know, that's big. Yeah.
2
0:20:14
Yeah. And that, yeah, like when you just let that sink in, it's, it really makes you think, hmm, you know, what am I teaching my kids?
1
0:20:23
And for the sake of a few adults being uncomfortable as they occasionally use the right name.
4
0:20:28
Yeah, of course.
2
0:20:29
And their chances of them potentially being assaulted in some way, shape or form, shutting down dramatically, that's massive.
1
0:20:37
And that's something really important to remember as a parent, for sure.
2
0:20:41
Beautiful. Sorry, now I'll interrupt.
1
0:20:43
Have you started the conversation?
11
0:20:44
No, all good.
1
0:20:45
So let's move on to the next one, which is the sex conversation. Now obviously this conversation was more an ongoing conversation than a singular conversation. And what I would love parents to think about is what values they're bringing. So for me, obviously the pleasure one is important, respect, connection, those are quite important values for me. So I make sure I bring those in when I am having conversations about sex with my children. And this can be just something that you could sit down with a partner or a friend and just talk about what some of your values are and how, even just having that awareness of your values and enter the conversations with those values. Because our values, really, our values underpin so much. Our values almost, they underpin our beliefs. And our beliefs are partly, they inform how we think, how we think kind of informs how we feel, how we feel it may inform how we behave or act, which then the world responds to that. So just the more we can, I feel like beliefs are just so, yeah, they're just a beautiful way to really give some meaning as well to these conversations, and you can really make them align with you and your family. So, beautiful. Yeah, beliefs. Secondly, we've touched on before, but just to think about what you teach them by default, you know, by not talking about it, you know, is there some shame, is it a secret thing, is there some guilt, you know, sinful stuff, even disembarrassment. I remember when I was about eight, and I remember this so clearly, and I went to the beach with my friend and her parents. And we were in New Zealand, it's a cold, windy beach, so we were playing around the rocks. It wasn't like an Australian beach experience, but we were playing in the rocks. And I looked up, and they were standing over there, and they were kissing, kissing like people kiss in the movies. Oh my goodness! Yeah, and it blew me away, because I had never seen my parents kiss like that, and I'd only ever seen that in the movies. And I just remember that mind-blowing, whoa, people actually kiss like that in real life. It was a moment. So for me, consciously, I made an effort to kiss like the movies in front of my children. Just so it's normalized. And now if we do it, they're like, oh, get a room, I'm gonna do it. I don't mean we're like fully making out. I just mean more than a peck, maybe some tongue or a longer kiss, with connection and just that, connecting with each other and kissing in that beautiful way. So that was quite a conscious choice because I consciously wanted to teach them that that's the beauty in physical intimacy, yeah, and to see that it's not just a movie thing. So, yes, think about what you want them to know and how you're going to teach them that. So books are amazing. I've got loads of books. I've got a link on my website. I can send you the link, but we'll books I recommend. But there's, I'll just pick one here. This one's a really beautiful, simple one that teaches how babies are made and it doesn't even mention sex, but it describes everything else. It leaves loads of space for you to talk about sex or IVF or adoption. It's done really well. So something like that can start really basically. Sorry, I realize we're just holding up and showing you, Laura.
4
0:24:11
I realize we're audio.
10
0:24:12
What's the title and author?
1
0:24:13
It's called What Makes a Baby by Corey Silverberg. They have a series of really good books. I've got all the series. They're really good. So, yeah, there's a heap of books that can be really helpful, especially when we are unsure what to say. A book can be a beautiful thing. And also a book, we're parallel, we're not having the intensity of eye contact, we're having a shared experience. And also just a note on parallel talking, especially for tweens and especially teens, it can be great to have these kind of conversations when you're both engaged in something else, shoulder to shoulder. So doing the dishes together, maybe doing something creative together, something in the garden, driving, in the car. So we haven't got the intensity of eye contact. We haven't got to worry about the micro-expressions that we may have of, oh, God, am I feeling shame? They haven't got to worry about their micro-expressions of you thinking, you know, oh, God, my mum's talking to me. So we don't have to worry about facial, what's going on in faces. So those kind of parallel conversations can be really helpful for anything, you know, talking about sex, relating bodies, those kind of things. Yeah. So think of it as an ongoing conversation.
8
0:25:21
Yeah.
2
0:25:22
Beautiful. There's so much there, so much goodness and so much to think about. I really love the idea of parallel communication or conversations. I think that does take away a lot of embarrassment or shame, maybe from both parties or one, depending on how everyone feels about it.
1
0:25:38
Definitely.
2
0:25:39
Beautiful. And so where are we actually going to get this information if we don't talk about them? And what is the effect of not having these conversations?
1
0:25:47
Yeah, so if we, like I said, adolescence is about discovering your sexuality and being curious about it. I mean, online, these days it's going to be online and a couple of clicks in the wrong place could be really, really damaging for your child. So yeah, I just don't advise online. The next conversation I'm going to tell you about is online safety, so we can segue to that in a minute.
9
0:26:16
But yeah, online.
1
0:26:17
And where are you going to get the information? There are so many amazing books. There are amazing resources. I run talks. There's just so much stuff out there to help you. In my parent consults, often it's that, can you tell me, can you give me some scripts, can you give me some resources? And it's really, sometimes we can, yes, of course, we need to put thought into it, but sometimes we can overthink these things because it just feels so overwhelming. So do not overthink it to get the resources you need. And if you have the support of a partner or a friend, just say, even to practice the conversations with them. For older, also depending on the child, but for older teens especially, it can be great to slip a book on their bed. There's some amazing books. There's a beautiful series of graphic comics, you know, that are amazing, sexy. I think I've done that for both my girls. We talk as well, but just, hey, read this book, and then they get to read the book, and then you can ask me if you have any questions, because that can be a really beautiful way to, again, there's absolutely no eye contact. They can look at it in their own time. They can get the information they need. I've given the same book to my tween and teen, and I'm very aware that my tween won't take as much of it in because she's not ready, but she'll get what she needs, and then my teen will take more of it in.
2
0:27:27
They're very good at self-regulating that as well. Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. Superb. That makes all the sense in the world. I'm so sorry. We'll just quickly jump back. Online safety. We have a couple more conversations. So online safety.
1
0:27:42
Yes, online safety. So this is something that's becoming more and more important. I mean, even probably day by day now with AI, you know, there's so much we are not aware of that we may never be aware of, but we need to have some awareness around. So again, if we go back to what we know with the young children, we're just planting seeds, and then the older ones were quite specific. The conversations you may have around online safety initially may be just we don't share things with people we don't know on the internet, versus in betweens, we're going to be a lot more specific and we really need to teach them that the internet is permanent. There's no such thing. Even if it's Snapchat and it deletes. I told them, I sent them a photo and then they would delete it. If they're screenshot like this, we really need to educate them around that. We need to let them know that it's not private, it's a hugely public space. Even if someone's anonymous, anything we share or say, there's the meme that says, before you post something, think about what your grandmother would say if she saw it. And that can come down to things like online bullying and stuff like that. When it's behind that kind of perceived anonymous face, it's just a perception that it's anonymous, it's not anonymous. And then also the internet is a stranger. And even if we have been gaming and there's Joe and he lives in the next state and he's 10 years old and I know that he likes – he's got a dog called – I can't remember the dog's name, but he's got a dog and a cat and he knows all the stuff about Joe. And maybe he's seen a picture of Joe and maybe with AI he's even seen a video of Joe saying – Yeah, it's so scary. Totally. So we just need to educate them that it's things aren't what they seem. And until we've met someone in real life, we can't know and we mustn't share information about ourselves to people online. It's super important. And these kind of things can be great for – a good way to teach us is through dinner conversations. So we have – most nights we have family dinner around the table and sometimes my partner and I will have a discussion before dinner about something we want to have a discussion about. And it could be even just me and my partner talking, but the girls are there and they're listening. Or it could be something we're involved in. And it might be a story. Oh gosh, did you hear about Susan? She got scammed online and da-da-da-da. And you feed them all those things. Stories are an amazing way of getting across any information. Stories just have so much meaning and they've got a context with them as well. And I often tell stories when I tell my socials and my newsletter, I have a story. And at the end I say, please feel free to share the story with the children as, oh, a friend told me, or did you hear about, and then you can have some open, hypothetical questions or open-ended questions, oh, what would you do in that situation, or what, you know, those kind of questions can be really good. So any stories about, yeah, scamming, bullying, you know, when they're older, grooming, those kind of things, they can be amazing for getting information across, yeah. Even stories about yourself or your youth, especially for teens. Teens love hearing stories that make you really human or mistakes you made yourself. So those kind of stories can be great for the older kids. And then today, obviously, more and more children are having devices and exposure to devices. So just have a lot of awareness around your child's device use. I have a – poor disclosure – my kids go to a stylist school, so in the primary there's no tech and in the high school it's low tech. But we still have phones at home and we've got the internet and computers, they don't game, but a lot of children in their class game, so they're still really exposed. And I'm of the, I'm going to last as long as I can without giving my children a phone. I have an editable phone contract that I have for parents, which I really highly suggest you do with your child when you get them on their first device. It covers so much. It covers all the internet safety things. It covers online body. It covers grooming, red flags, just a lot of things so that you both know what your responsibilities are and the risks and those kind of things. So just having a lot more awareness around what your child has access to and keeping those lines of conversations open, for sure.
2
0:32:07
Yeah, absolutely.
1
0:32:08
And I think when kids get devices and things, that's a whole other topic within itself.
8
0:32:13
Yeah, it's huge.
7
0:32:14
It's massive and complex.
2
0:32:15
Beautiful. And was there, have we covered all five?
6
0:32:17
No, we've got two more conversations.
2
0:32:18
Two more.
1
0:32:19
Cool, yeah. So the next one is the porn conversation. So it kind of connects online. Yes. So obviously when they're younger, we don't need, and especially if they haven't got internet access or you're very aware of what they've got access to, obviously they can still go to someone else's house or be with an older cousin, you know, still, you know, awareness. So when they're younger, we can just tell them, you know, the same way that we don't let them watch scary movies or there are movies that aren't appropriate for them. You know, there's other content that's just not appropriate for children. But when they become, especially coming into tweens, it's important to be more specific. So we need to have some conversations around what porn is and isn't. So it's really important that they know that porn isn't real in the same way that stunts and movies aren't real. You know, porn is not real. The bodies in it aren't real, really important, you know. All gender bodies are not real there. A lot of the acts aren't real. A lot of the – or they're normalised as violence. That's important for them to know. And often it's made for men. So they really need to know what's – the lack of consent, you know, that's another huge one. There was a study done a few years ago, but there were a whole lot of porn, and 88% of porn had physical aggression, and of that physical aggression, 97% was directed at women. And they need to know that most porn is made by men for men. As they get older, we can teach them a little bit of discernment around porn, because obviously we don't want to shame them for being curious. It's not about shaming them, but it's about teaching them some literacy and some media literacy or some critical thinking around porn.
5
0:34:18
It's super important.
2
0:34:19
I mean, I think it's the same with when they're in school, they're taught about, is this text actually legitimate? Has someone manufactured this on the internet? Is it a reliable source? Like, it's the same type of thing. And I see that with couples, you know, as adults, that honestly, you know, I think they can go so many different ways that it, you know, it can become an addiction and they perceive that their relationship should be like that. And it's like, well, hmm, you don't have a budget of X, Y, Z, and you don't trade. You know what I mean? There's so much to it. Even grown adults, and I do find that grown adults will honestly believe that that's real. Even though there's some awareness in the back of their heads that it's not, but I think it's become so normalized that you engage with it or you watch it so much that it's just like, this is how my relationship should also be. And then when it's not, it's like, well, let's go see what the grass is green on.
4
0:35:17
Yeah, definitely.
1
0:35:18
And also, you mentioned that... It's sad. It's so sad. So sad. Yeah, you mentioned the addiction, but also the brain, you know, and especially when... Yes. If a young child's first sex experiences are via porn, and porn today is just getting so much more graphic and more damaging and dangerous, you know, some of that wiring for those early sex experiences to that, that can, I mean, it's just, it makes me sad because sex is so much more, I mean, you know, so much more than what that reduces it to. Yeah. Such a problem, and that becomes the education. Totally, yeah, it's not, they need to know, that's one thing that they need to know, that is not, that is not where they should go through education. It's not, yeah, like you said, that misinformation. Yeah.
2
0:35:59
And I think there would have been generate, many generations, or like a few, a couple, that's potentially where they went for education because, like you said, it wasn't in schools or it wasn't talked about, so where did they go? If they had the internet, that's where they would have went.
1
0:36:15
Yeah, of course. Yeah, and I mean, even a few generations ago, it might have been more educational than it is today. It's still not amazing. But today is so like, yeah.
2
0:36:28
Yeah, it's a bit scary. Yeah, really scary.
1
0:36:31
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then you're moving into the healthy relationships. So this is something, and it's one of those things I often find myself talking about with my friends, imagine if we'd learnt when we were 16 or 18 what a narcissist was, or rather than have to experience one, or what a toxic relationship is, or relationship red flags, or what love bombing or gaslighting is. Like, imagine, you know, as adults, often we learn that stuff through our experiences. And again, it comes to that reactive, proactive, but imagine if we could start educating the children around what a healthy relationship does look like and doesn't look like. It's one of those things because it's tricky because we learn through that relationship primarily through relating, of course. But the more we can prime or teach, the more things we can plant, I think that the better foundations we're going to give our children. I think it can be a tricky one as well to teach because it can feel quite intangible, but you can find lots of teachable moments. So, for example, we had a situation with my eldest daughter recently where she was messaging. She doesn't have a phone, but I allow her to use my phone for messages, and obviously I see all the messages. She knows I see them. It's transparent. But she was messaging with an older boy. It was a little bit friendly. Obviously, I was on a high alert. A bit of love bombing, and then he didn't want her to tell his friends that they were messaging. Me and my partner, we just stepped in and ended, you know, so we can't connect anymore. But it led to some really good conversations with her. You know, if someone doesn't want you to know about – doesn't want their friends to know about you, that is a red flag. You know, you're worthy of everyone knowing about you, you know, things like that. So those kind of things. And another great teachable space is if you have Netflix or media, put media. So I do find there is a lot of modeling of toxic relationships on so many shows at the moment. So I do really restrict what my children watch. My eldest has been begging me to watch Jenny in Georgia. And I've watched it myself and I did enjoy it, but also it's like, oh my God, it's so toxic, I can't.
2
0:38:43
Yeah, it's an example of what not to do.
1
0:38:46
Totally. And I know I'm going to have to watch it with her and there'll be amazing conversations. So I keep putting it off to develop the things I really want to say about it. So you can, I think it's great to watch movies and obviously do research yourself beforehand, make sure it's appropriate and appropriate for your child. But I have so many things like cause movies, I have things like cause songs that are playing. So to hear that, what do you think about that? We have really good conversations. And there can be beautiful, like the show Heartstopper. I don't know if you've watched that or seen that. That's a beautiful one to watch with tweens and teens. It's about relating. And it's got some really healthy, it's got some toxic relationships in there, but they're highlighted and they're not normalized and they do really well. So the more we can, and again, the dinner table conversations are great for this too. So the more we have these conversations in a way that are palatable for our children, the more I feel like the better foundations they're going to have when it comes to their own relating.
2
0:39:47
Yeah, absolutely. And speaking my language, when we talk about educating around relating, and that always for me, mine's primarily adults, but I've always seen that as well trickle down into their kids' lives in such a massive way, to the point where it had people say, like, we stopped being confrontational towards one another, and we were still discussing things. We still weren't on the same page necessarily, but we were communicating differently. Our kids stopped fighting based on us doing that. Like, we didn't do anything or say anything. And I was like, no, because you modelled it to them. And they noticed, and they picked up on it. And I think this is the thing is that we think it's so hard and it's so hard to teach them all this stuff, you know. It's like not really. Like you just lead by example, you know. And if you get it wrong, then talk to them about it. Because if we all do, we all do.
1
0:40:42
Totally. We're human and then they'll ask if we're human.
2
0:40:45
Yeah. So I couldn't agree more. And by exactly what you said, by them having that really great role models with really great conversations, they're going to have healthy relationships and know, you know, how, even how to choose a partner, what a healthy relationship and partner looks like. Oh my goodness, how much is that worth? So much.
1
0:41:05
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Beautiful. Now, we've covered so many things and this may be the hardest question to answer so far, but if you could boil it down to the three things that you would like listeners to take away from today's conversation, what
2
0:41:21
would they be?
1
0:41:22
Okay. So, firstly, to be proactive rather than reactive, as much as you can to really keep that in mind. Secondly, to bring some awareness of feelings as well as facts when you're through these conversations, especially for our teams, like we said, they're bundles of feelings, so you want to connect on that level. And then lastly, to be aware that what we teach our kids today become their expectations for tomorrow. So for example, if we don't teach our daughters that their pleasure anatomy, are we also teaching them that their pleasure isn't valid or important? If we teach our girls to be nice and polite no matter what, we also teach them later to not reject someone's unwanted advances. If we teach our boys that naturally they're wired to want sex more than girls, we then teach them entitlement when it comes to sex later. And then on the flip side, if we're teaching our kids to identify, to trust and to articulate their feelings, we're teaching them the validity and the importance of their feelings. And also if we are teaching our kids that rejection is a normal part of life, we're then teaching them that their self-worth isn't necessarily tied up with being liked by someone.
2
0:42:38
Yes, absolutely. Beautiful takeaway. And so Natalie, all of your information and their links will be in the show notes. How can they find out more about you and your amazing work?
1
0:42:52
Yeah, so I'm on socials, just at TellYourDaughters. Website is tellyourdaughters.com.au and email address is hello at tellyourdaughters.com.au. My inbox is always open. I'm happy to answer any questions or I'm signed to my DMs. I really welcome any random questions about sex. I know what a big issue topic it can feel, so I'm happy to be there for parents. I have a couple of free downloads. I've got a parents glossary which can be quite helpful of all the not only terms but also slang that children are using and acronyms which is super important to know. And then also I've got the downloadable phone contract which can be quite helpful as well. So yeah, feel free to reach out anyone who's listening who's got questions. Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time and sharing all those incredible tips and important conversations to have with your kids. Thank you Natalie. You're so welcome. Thanks Laura. I love these chats. your kids. Thank you Natalie. You're so welcome. Thanks Laura. I love these chats.
3
0:43:48
Transcribed with Cockatoo
